Disillusioned

[empire]

What the hell were the people in this country thinking?

Evidently, Americans believe that:

A.) In this age of globalization and a world economy, now is the right time to flip the rest of the world the bird.

B.) Iraq was indeed not only a threat to the US, but was also actually behind 9/11. Saddam, and not Bin Laden, was the biggest threat to our citizens.

C.) It is a smart thing to do to fight a war and cut taxes at the same time. Screw the deficeit.

D.) It is OK for our President to try to constitutionalize discrimination.

E.) Stem-cell research is unimportant.

F.) The Saudis and Egyptians are actually our allies.

G.) Sending all of our manufacturing jobs overseas is a good plan.

H.) Big drug companies (big business in general) are more important than senior citizens and everyday Americans needing medication.

Etc...

I am feeling pretty disillusioned. I hate to admit it, but I am ashamed to be an American right now...

[hammers]

I am feeling pretty disillusioned. I hate to admit it, but I am ashamed to be an American right now...

I'm right there with you, buddy.

J

[waxx]

I love my country!!

I hate my government...

and the media...

and the man...

and skull & bones...

and the sheep!

Anybody care to listen to Pink Floyd, 'Animals?'

[mafia]

i and jenny are just sick,.........we stayed up late and watched a lot of the coverage...how can one guy fuck so much up and still keep his job??(see john's post for examples)..enron, cocaine at camp david..we need another 70 billion....the man is an idiot, a dick cheney puppet..are we better off now than we were 4 years ago?????

[mpfg]

The president says he goes to church and that he has accepted that Jesus is his savior. To a majority of Americans, that's all they hear and all they care to hear. Unfortunately, we are living in the time of fundamentalism. If it's Islamic fundamentalism then it's bad; Christian fundamentalism appears to be completely acceptable, however. Mark Twain had some interesting comments on the issue. Not so much to get into what he said, but more to point out that we are just repeating history again. This will be the last time Bush gets elected. Soon, the pendulum will swing back to the other side.

[podunks]

The president says he goes to church and that he has accepted that Jesus is his savior. To a majority of Americans, that's all they hear and all they care to hear. Unfortunately, we are living in the time of fundamentalism. If it's Islamic fundamentalism then it's bad; Christian fundamentalism appears to be completely acceptable, however. Mark Twain had some interesting comments on the issue. Not so much to get into what he said, but more to point out that we are just repeating history again. This will be the last time Bush gets elected. Soon, the pendulum will swing back to the other side.

Spot on, Jim. Problem is, W. didn't really start going to church until he saw how fervently they supported his daddy. One of my students told me that she was glad Bush won because he's such a "moral" man. Evidently the negative tone of his campaign, (How can you call anyone "moral" who has Zell Miller speak at his convention? Compare Miller's speech to the speech given by Barack O'Bama (sp?), the keynote speaker at the Dem convention and then tell me who's more "moral"), the jingoistic rush to war (thou shall not kill, anyone?), and his overall sleaziness (wipe that sneer off your face) were not enough to convince her that this "moral" image is just a facade.

One of my favorite Bible verses says that we should "defend the rights of the poor and oppressed." Doesn't sound like W to me. Another one of my favorite verses says that "in Christ there is neither slave nor free, Greek nor Roman, man nor woman." (I'm paraphrasing). It seems W has had the whole "unity" part of his Bible ripped out. In fact, Bush's Bible is probably only one page long, the page that says "eye for an eye." Problem is, that's followed, on the next page by the "let's forget the eye for and eye thing and turn the other cheek" section.

Thoughtful people of good conscience have a lot of work to do, it seems. God help us.

[waxx]

Since we are speaking some religion, isn't this all part of the plan anyway? Afterall, if you are one that believes, then you are one who knows who really runs the show in this world.

I wouldn't mind being around when the shit hits the fan. If I can't, I just hope my great to the 5th grand child gets to play the role of John Connor.

If you have lots of time:

http://www.parascope.com/articles/0997/skullbones.htm

And if you really have lots of time (you will need Adobe Reader) start on page 8:

http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/northwoods.pdf

Conspiracy, conterfiet, ??

Bizarre stuff. I'm out!!

[hammers]

Here are some gentle musings that currently have be just utterly aghast...

Bush and his administration repeatedly went on national TV and SWORE Iraq was a threat due to their possession of weapons of mass destruction. They guaranteed us they were there and it was our duty as a nation to overthrow that ruthless government in order to preserve the American way. So we did. We've sent thousands of our youth into harms way and we've overthrown the tyrant. However, it appears there were NO WMD's and even though the tyrant was evil, he wasn't NEARLY as powerfull as predicted. Now we're stuck halfway round the world trying to develop Israel II (you think the first one had a big budget?). This guy LIED to us. We put our faith in him and his staff to give us accurate information and they outright LIED about what was over there and why we needed to get involved. They lied to government inquiries, they lied to the American people, they even lied to the international community in UN meetings.
They get re-elected.
The previous president had his cock sucked in the white house and lied about it and almost got impeached.
Is it really all that wonderfull a thing to be an American?

I really don't have any ill feelings toward the pres himself. I think he's a simple, likeable guy.
Do you remember when you first learned how HUGE some coporations were? Like when you found out when Coke actually owned Sprite (they're not seperate companies?) or Pepsi owned KFC? The company doing the buying doesn't want anyone to notice the change so they keep the original "branding" for the old company?
I think some republican think tank came up with the idea of trying to "brand" the presidency with the Bush name.
Just like folks'll stop into a McDonalds when visiting Ireland, they'll keep voting Bush because it's familiar. Some devious republican met "W" one day and noticed he was likeable. They also noticed he was simple and decided he would be an ideal president.

I don't believe Bush is the "leader" of our country. Sure, he's responsible for signing the paperwork, but I've seen nothing from him in the past four years that makes me believe ANY cogent thought escaping his lips hasn't been given to him by someone else. I've done some researching (god bless Al Gore for giving us the internet) and there's nothing in Bush's past to indicate he's been successfull at anything he's been involved with before. Sure, he may not have driven anything into the dirt (even though he has), but nothing he's been associated with has EVER prospered. Hell, it could be argued the only reason 9/11 happened was because this Albatross had been given the presidency in the most debated election EVER (I know the logic isn't there, but that hasn't prevented our government from using similar methodology). 9/11 was god punishing us for electing Bush. Wouldn't Falwell love to hear that one?

I think whoever it is that's leading Bush around is doing so by garnering his trust as a Christian. A LOT of his cabinet members are "born agains". Bush cites his relationship with Jesus as the impetus to stop drinking. Have you ever met someone who gave up an addiction for Jesus? I mean, god bless 'em for giving up the smack, but when you get to know these people, you still get the sense that somethings still not right about them. There's an almost palpable overcompensation-vibe going. This is the guy who's sitting in the white house right now. This is a man who believes in armogedden and the rapture and he has access to the most destructive weapons on the planet. He's picking fights with infidels in the Holy Land. He uses words like "EVIL" way too much.
I think the public likes Bush's Jesus "mojo". The problem is, if the devil does arrive, won't he try and deceive all of us into committing our own destruction? He's not going to show up as a red-skinned, horned critter with goats legs. That'd be too obvious. We'd just chuck a rock at him and tell him to get lost. He's going to show up as a befuddled texan good 'ole boy whose pappa was once the president of America and who loves Jesus, applie pie and baseball? That might fool a few people. Get control of the most powerfull country on the planet, you could really get Armogedden rolling from there, couldn't you?
We're about to see how strong America really is. We're about to see if we can survive 4 more years of Bush.

Our democracy sucks (note, this is not an implication of democracy as a whole, just our current incarnation),

J

[oilers]

I have seen or heard this alot before and after the election: (from instapundit.com)



WHY KERRY LOST: It may be presumptuous to say John Kerry lost the election for the reasons I personally voted against him. But I’ve decided to say it anyway.

I didn’t vote for George W. Bush in 2000. I’ve never voted for any Republican president. This time was my first. And I did so because of the Terror War.

I know quite a few people who didn’t support Bush last time but did support him this time. And every single one of them did so for the same reasons I did. Because of the Terror War. Because Kerry could not be trusted.

I don’t know of anyone, anywhere, who swung from Al Gore to George W. Bush because of gay marriage, tax cuts, or for any other reason. I’m not saying they don’t exist. But if they do exist, I haven’t heard of ’em. They’re an invisible, miniscule minority.

There aren’t enough of us liberal hawks, disgruntled Democrats, neo-neoconservatives - or whatever else you might want to call us - to trigger a political realignment. But it does appear we can swing an election. At least we can help. And though I don’t think of myself as conservative (I did just vote for a Democratic Congress), my alienation from the liberal party is total. A political party that thinks crying Halliburton! is a grown-up response to anti-totalitarian war just isn’t serious.

Any grown-up arguments to present? I haven't seen any on this thread.

I take it from the previous posts that I shouldn't wear my SwiftVet TShirt to next years draft?

[pride]

interesting mitch. I have some interesting materials as well stashed away from my days at V.U. There are numerous plots and acts that people are not aware of that may affect our freedoms and diversity.

The intersting thing about that are the historical connections between Hilter and Bush. Social and economic genocide are truly concepts that are hard to connect, but related in every way. As i attempt to climb the ladder and make a better way for my family, am i really aware of how close to poverty i really am. My life is in the hands of every financial institution that makes itself available to me! Bush and his family are the begginning of the end. One of my favorite bible passage is "Money is the root of all evil" The skull and bones article is a true indication that it truly is.

[hammers]

And every single one of them did so for the same reasons I did. Because of the Terror War.

First off, don't get get me confused with being a Democrat. If I were to claim any party affiliation it would likely be Libertarian, but I'm currently unhindered by such associations. I have a particular disdain for both the republican and democratic parties. I honeslty associate them with companies like Coke and Pepsi that just dominate their respective landscape and prevent innovation by absorbing or supressing anything that goes against their current paradigms. They've institutionalized themselves and there's no way we can legislate them out since they write the legislation! Our governmental system is an elaborate pyramid scheme benefitting those already in power. We're allowed just enough of a choice (two alternatives) to be technically onsidered a democracy and that's enough for the Democratic and Republican parties.

Your post brings me back to my point. The Republicans are simply much better at "branding" their candidate. They use terms like "Terror War" or "Axis of Evil" to get your attention. The best thing the Dem's could come up with was a candidate with the same initials as John F. Kennedy.

It doesn't matter that there is no "Terror War" or "Axis of Evil". You just have to sound convincing and repeat it over and over and people will start to believe you.

"Terror War". I find that amusing. I hope it goes as well as the "Drug War" or the "Crime War". Notice you don't hear those terms tossed around that much any more? That's because we've grown accustomed to them. We'd become desensitized to them. We've also come to realize they're "fictional" wars. They had to dig up a new one that would scare us and what better than "Terror War". Hell, the word "Terror" is right in the title...it's perfect.
Terror War makes as much sense as Hurricane War. You can't declare war on either. They're natural phenomenons that can't be detered by conventional means. You can prepare for them and try to protect yourself from them, but if you honestly think you can prevent them entirely, you're deluded. America was very fortunate that it hadn't had worse attacks prior to 9/11. If you look through history you'll find EVERY society has been the target of some terrorist attack at some point. Technology nowadays allow terrorists to do much more damage than before, but the fact remains there will always be angry people out there intent on hurting others. Again, prepare for them and punish them severly when you catch them, but don't declare a rediculous "war" on them.

Bush's impact on our safety from terrorists is the same as his impact on our safety from volcanic erruptions the past three years. Just because no more have happened doesn't mean he's responsible.

I believe a number of people voted for the same reason posted above, the reality of it just frightens me though.

J

[waxx]

Any grown-up arguments to present? I haven't seen any on this thread.

Apparently, you only read what I wrote.

What is really unfortunate and I am just as guilty as that most of us only seem to get involved and express our opinions once every 4 years.

It is our society that wishes to turn us all into over worked, mindless drowns who either don't care or don't think there is something worth while to care about. So long as we have our televisions, video games, computers, cell phones, fast food restaurants, fantasy football, some form of 'medication' and our neverending battle to just stay ahead of the game, we really won't have a chance to make a difference. Not until the shit hits the fan.

[empire]

Scott (or any other Bush backer):

Please explain to me how the war in Iraq has anything whatsoever to do with the war on terror. How many Iraqis were involved in the 9/11 attacks? Jason is right about the nature of terrorism-- it cannot be effectively countered with conventional military force. If some nut wants to kill American civilians and give up their own life to do so, there is no stopping it. How hard would it be to park a van full of fertilizer next to the Southlake Mall?

Al Qaeda hasn't hit the US again under Bush's watch for one reason-- they are too busy attacking our forces in Iraq. The only way that this war has helped is by providing a diversion, at the cost of tens of thousand of innocent lives.

Don't give me any of that "promoting democracy" shit either. How hard have we pushed the Saudis to embrace freedom and democracy? The Saudi royal family is every bit as corrupt, repressive, and brutal as was Saddam-- and they encourage and financially support anti-Western fundamentalist Islamic schools in order to distract their subjects (not citizens) from the fact that they have no rights, no freedom, and no financial means. Same thing for our other major Arab allies. Saddam was an evil bastard, absolutely, but no more so than any of the other despots in the Middle East, Africa, or anywhere else. While he was our bastard, though, it was OK (see Bush I in the late 80s)-- he didn't become America's #1 enemy until he threated our oil supply in the early 90s.

The real reason why the US is hated so much is because we act hypocritically and are more frightening (foreign policy wise) than any terrorist group. Stability in the Middle East will occur when we stop sticking our noses in there and let things develop naturally. Yes, that includes limiting our support of Israel, too, until they stop bulldozing in the West Bank and return the territories that they have occupied (illegally) since the late 60s/early 70s.

The War in Iraq represents a thinly-veiled return to old school imperialism. It will have the long term effect of making us more hated (and far more justifiably hated), thus increasing terrorist attcks. Further, we have isolated ourselves from the international community, at the very time when we should be embracing the opportunity to act as a true leader in the ever-shrinking world. Bush and his administration are old-school power-politics cold warriors. Cheney and his America-First pals are possibly the scariest group to hold power in the United States ever. 9/11 has caused a knee-jerk reaction toward conservatism in this country-- Bush has taken full advantage of that fact.

I didn't really vote for John Kerry. I found him unappealing also (Howard Dean man, here), but he is infinitely less scary than is W. I voted against Bush, and any alternative would do for me. Bush will eventually go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in US history. The potential damage he will cause in the next four years is immense, just in the foreign policy arena. His domestic policies are equally scary for those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians. I am truly devastated that this is the best that America can do.

[empire]

One of my favorite Bible verses says that we should "defend the rights of the poor and oppressed." Doesn't sound like W to me. Another one of my favorite verses says that "in Christ there is neither slave nor free, Greek nor Roman, man nor woman." (I'm paraphrasing). It seems W has had the whole "unity" part of his Bible ripped out. In fact, Bush's Bible is probably only one page long, the page that says "eye for an eye." Problem is, that's followed, on the next page by the "let's forget the eye for and eye thing and turn the other cheek" section.

Good points, all. I have a hard time seeing Jesus endorsing war for any reason, yet the vast majority of the conservative war hawks in our government are somehow so appealing to religious conservatives in this country.

[empire]

The previous president had his cock sucked in the white house and lied about it and almost got impeached.

Judeo-Christian values at their finest. Amazing how Clinton's incident, or for that matter two consenting adults of the same sex who want to share insurance benefits, are more threatening to our way of life than killing 10s of thousands of innocent Iraqis.

Our democracy sucks (note, this is not an implication of democracy as a whole, just our current incarnation).

No, in our age of mass media, I would say democracy as a whole is a bad idea. The guy who can appear the most appealing in TV commercials gets elected.

Merit-based non-hereditary aristocracy would be the way to go now (that ought to stir up some shit). Do we really want uneducated rural white trash deciding who should be the leader of the free world based on what they see on television?